tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1592992209402300549.post2723266704740424384..comments2024-03-28T08:06:43.198-04:00Comments on The Silicon Graybeard: NASA's (and Our) Worst Week in SpaceflightSiGraybeardhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00280583031339062059noreply@blogger.comBlogger29125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1592992209402300549.post-7581534956726753172018-02-03T20:15:52.077-05:002018-02-03T20:15:52.077-05:0050F is not accurate. The design requirements call...50F is not accurate. The design requirements called for being able to launch from Vandenberg to meet USAF requirements. I do not have access to those criteria, but they were definitely LOWER than 10C. As Thiokol admitted when they were asked in the meeting.Mark Matisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1592992209402300549.post-60345787901279066692018-02-02T20:38:14.890-05:002018-02-02T20:38:14.890-05:00Mark Matis:
Yes, I heard 50F ... I translated it ...Mark Matis:<br /><br />Yes, I heard 50F ... I translated it to C to make the SI folks happy. They shouldn't have launched from Florida at that temp either. I find that icicles are a good indicator of "not warm".<br /><br />It does get fairly chilly at the Thiokol site in Utah though. But if the test spec said 50F - or 10C - I can't see a contractor going the extra mile (spending the extra money - or inviting undesired extra "oversight") to go beyond test requirements.<br /><br />QAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1592992209402300549.post-69469163592442495512018-02-02T10:16:16.534-05:002018-02-02T10:16:16.534-05:00As a child, I remember vividly visiting KFC! They ...As a child, I remember vividly visiting KFC! They were assembling Apollo 12 in the Assembly Building, so of course we didn't get to go in. Wow, was that a great time to be a kid. Now...I worry that my grand-kids are going to ask me, "Pa-paw, did we REALLY go to themoon." Space-X and company have given me new hope though. LCBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03146393047895889252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1592992209402300549.post-19914983925866544292018-02-02T00:12:56.415-05:002018-02-02T00:12:56.415-05:00Long ago, I saw a claim that the boosters were mad...Long ago, I saw a claim that the boosters were made in segments so they could be transported from the manufacturer in a certain legislative district, in return for the cooperation of that rep/senator in moving the shuttle project forward. I have so far not been able to find a reference to this claim.Ritchiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08075903551422300106noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1592992209402300549.post-72705557533435752982018-02-01T21:50:41.454-05:002018-02-01T21:50:41.454-05:00Yes, I was flabbergasted when the seal failed unde...Yes, I was flabbergasted when the seal failed under those temps. Lived at Vandenberg from '67 to '70 and just above 32 degree temps were not uncommon in winter-time.<br /><br />Just one test. One stinking test of a solid booster under freezing conditions would have found the issue, but, noooo, costs too much.<br /><br />And it wasn't the tiles on the Orbiter, it was the foam coating over the main tank that was changed during the Clinton/Gore era due to CFC reductions. Wow, rather save absolutely nothing since at that time the ozone layer was already repairing itself than save human lives and weight (the new tank foam required more foam to achieve the same insulation results.)Andrewnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1592992209402300549.post-54183721733306721772018-02-01T20:59:31.251-05:002018-02-01T20:59:31.251-05:00I am unable to find the spec that the SRBs were or...I am unable to find the spec that the SRBs were originally required to meet, but I believe that was supposed to be "F", not "C". The requirement was to be able to launch from Vandenberg for USAF missions. 10C is 50F. They would rarely be able to put one up from Vandenberg if that was the requirement.Mark Matisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1592992209402300549.post-5327495066898590342018-02-01T19:40:20.059-05:002018-02-01T19:40:20.059-05:00Oh, dear - bad week indeed. I've worked Boeing...Oh, dear - bad week indeed. I've worked Boeing Space & Defense, Lockheed Space Systems, and NASA over the course of a long career ... and some things never change. Good or bad. While I miss working with all or any of them, I suspect those days are gone and the hope lies with Space-X clones if not Space-X itself. Attitudes are well-ingrained in the cultures. NASA seems to have followed Pournelle's Iron Law.<br /><br />I still have the NASA blurb from when Challenger blew ... and I heard the same stories of a change in recipe for the tiles - which I tend to believe. I once had a couple of pieces of the old tile. It looked and felt like styrofoam ... but I could hold a 3/8 thick chunk in my hand, blow a welding torch on it, and not feel the heat.<br /><br />I well remember Feynman's demo with the O-ring - about the time the axe was going to fall on some poor engineer at Thiokol when the blame belonged on whoever authorized a launch "out of spec". Icicles indeed. The spec as I recall was "above 10C". I'm sure it had nothing to do with the SOTU speech scheduled that evening.<br /><br />But my point in commenting. Here's a book you might be interested in reading: "Truth, Lies, and O-Rings - Inside the Space Shuttle Challenger Disaster" by Allan J McDonald with James R. Hansen. (Univ of FL Press) ISBN 978-0-8130-4193-3<br /><br />I got my copy at a lecture by the author given at one of NASA's facilities - which was sort of a surprise given the topic and the lecture host.<br /><br />QAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1592992209402300549.post-77202476916944635032018-02-01T18:41:26.200-05:002018-02-01T18:41:26.200-05:00I got to go to a few of those when my wife worked ...I got to go to a few of those when my wife worked on the KSC, fairly near the VAB. I was on the Cape for the return to flight open house after Challenger, which I recall as July 4, 1987. Another time I went inside the OPF, stood under Discovery, saw lots of cool stuff. But she retired in ‘97, so that was long ago. Plus, the comment was about the Visitors’ Center’s tours so that’s what I was responding to. SiGraybeardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280583031339062059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1592992209402300549.post-71136148366624613202018-02-01T17:53:10.232-05:002018-02-01T17:53:10.232-05:00You obviously didn't get to go through any of ...You obviously didn't get to go through any of the employee appreciation tours. When Shuttle was active, there were hazardous operations going on continuously in most of the processing facilities, and the general public was not allowed in those facilities for safety reasons. KSC did try to hold an Open House roughly once a year when possible, shutting down hazardous ops and safing systems for one day so employees and their families and a limited number of their friends escorted by them (nothing larger than a 9 passenger vehicle) could show where they worked and what they did.<br /><br />Today I believe that SpaceX is processing in one of the VAB high bays so that is off limits for proprietary reasons. I don't know if they have any loaded booster segments in there for the new SLS system that is supposed to fly next year, but that would be a reason to deny entry as well. Unintentional ignition of an SRB or segment is a Bad Day. And much of the other Shuttle facilities should be empty and waiting further use, so there wouldn't be much to see in them either. All this flows from the decision to terminate Shuttle and not fund a replacement at levels that could get it developed in a reasonable timeframe, which is why I retired when I did.<br /><br />Oh, and Lockheed Martin is assembling the Orion capsule in the O&C building, so that is off limits for proprietary reasons as well.Mark Matisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1592992209402300549.post-9296601504899505502018-02-01T17:44:57.049-05:002018-02-01T17:44:57.049-05:00For the last several years I was there, that was N...For the last several years I was there, that was NOT the standard for Shuttle processing. The contractor engineers most likely did coordinate with each other when drafting the procedure, but when it was time to run, they had carte blanche to rearrange steps without any review or documentation, other than the time stamp that the techs or QC were supposed to put by each step as it was finished. And if they wanted to add or delete any of the steps in the procedure, they could do that on their own without any further approval, although they were supposed to write down the changes in the procedure. It's possible that has changed since I retired at the end of June 2009, but not very likely. In fact, with Bolden being the NASA Administrator since then, my bet is that it has actually gotten worse...Mark Matisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1592992209402300549.post-23196659062171799242018-02-01T15:45:38.535-05:002018-02-01T15:45:38.535-05:00At the risk of disappointing you, I saw the story ...At the risk of disappointing you, I saw the story when it showed up last week (I think). It's an interesting development to have it wake itself back up and come to life again. By the link you sent, it apparently came back to life in October, 2016. Very cool website, by the way. <br /><br />That could be an interesting way to spend time, though. Looking for satellite signals. Another hobby! With exotic (= expen$ive) equipment! What more do I need? <br /><br />The last satellite I worked on was an earth observing satellite for JPL. It suddenly went dead a couple of years into the mission, but their failure analysis implied something killed the power and it died fairly quickly. I recall talk about collision with space junk but not why they thought that was possible. <br /><br />SiGraybeardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280583031339062059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1592992209402300549.post-85529595199591625112018-02-01T14:56:58.601-05:002018-02-01T14:56:58.601-05:00Argggh! nasas-long-dead-image-satellite-is-alive
...Argggh! nasas-long-dead-image-satellite-is-alive<br /><br />My apologies...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1592992209402300549.post-715767234511980502018-02-01T14:55:27.061-05:002018-02-01T14:55:27.061-05:00My bad. Actual link is:
https://skyriddles.wordpre...My bad. Actual link is:<br />https://skyriddles.wordpress.com/2018/01/21/nasas-long-dead-satellite-is-alive/<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1592992209402300549.post-20502632509387335292018-02-01T14:52:55.116-05:002018-02-01T14:52:55.116-05:00One more for ya. Since you're a radio guy you&...One more for ya. Since you're a radio guy you'll like this. This was one of the first missions with which I was involved; I had the opportunity to build and test the data processing/memory board for one of the instruments on IMAGE.<br />https://skyriddles.wordpress.com/2018/01/21/nasas-long-dead-satellite-is-alive/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1592992209402300549.post-63506723445793821712018-02-01T12:44:12.710-05:002018-02-01T12:44:12.710-05:00Oh, the famous one where they dropped the quarter-...Oh, the famous one where they dropped the quarter-billion dollar satellite on the floor. That was a regular <a href="https://space.stackexchange.com/questions/1783/was-the-noaa-n-prime-satellite-really-dropped-on-the-floor" rel="nofollow">meme</a> for a while. <br /><br />Gravity wins. <br />SiGraybeardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280583031339062059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1592992209402300549.post-91998731673965105722018-02-01T12:32:42.171-05:002018-02-01T12:32:42.171-05:00Here's a link to the NASA NOAA N-Prime Mishap ...Here's a link to the NASA NOAA N-Prime Mishap Investigation Board. This is the multi-million dollar satellite that was dumped onto the floor because of complacent attitudes and lack of discipline in following proper procedures. Interesting reading on organizational dysfunction.<br />https://www.nasa.gov/pdf/65776main_noaa_np_mishap.pdf<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1592992209402300549.post-18709215164469004912018-02-01T12:25:00.014-05:002018-02-01T12:25:00.014-05:00I'm afraid that's the way it has been for ...I'm afraid that's the way it has been for quite a while. It definitely had the air of "our best days were long in the past". <br /><br />I haven't been there in a long time, and got that feeling back then. <br /><br />Sad, really. <br />SiGraybeardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280583031339062059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1592992209402300549.post-88317886522846678552018-02-01T12:23:23.663-05:002018-02-01T12:23:23.663-05:00Gotcha. That's something that's covered b...Gotcha. That's something that's covered by the review process in the contractor world, too. Procedures for the equivalent sorts of tests are written, reviewed and approved. The test can't be modified while it's running without several engineers getting together and approving it; typically the chief engineer running the particular test (say the chief of the EMI or environmental lab), test engineer, design engineer, etc. Document, document, document. It's OK if it's in red pen after hours as long as the master copy is kept up to date and under configuration control. <br />SiGraybeardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280583031339062059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1592992209402300549.post-78895756327982732322018-02-01T11:59:02.890-05:002018-02-01T11:59:02.890-05:00I visited the Kennedy Space Center this week and w...I visited the Kennedy Space Center this week and was somewhat disappointed. Very little to actually see. Sure there were mockups of spaceships and a bus trip to the launch pad. There were movies too but I felt it was all back in the 60's and remember this or that with almost nothing new or even since the mid-70's. Our guide/bus driver seemed knowledgeble but I will never know because English is his second language and I understood maybe 10% of what he said. The long drive-by of the launch pad was a waste of half an hour. Very disappointing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1592992209402300549.post-29321182215258552572018-02-01T11:58:47.044-05:002018-02-01T11:58:47.044-05:00This is not about design reviews. This is instead...This is not about design reviews. This is instead about reviewing operations. Procedures to prep a vehicle for flight are somewhat complex. And in the course of doing that prep, things frequently are different from what they were the last time they prepped a vehicle. Turning an engineer and techs loose without documenting what they're going to do and without making them follow that procedure or get an appropriate review for changes to same create "entertainment". I saw that frequently during the 30+ years I worked at KSC. Especially with first time hardware coming from elsewhere. The designers and manufacturers were supposed to develop procedures to operate their equipment, and test that on said equipment at their site before shipping to KSC. I don't think I ever saw one of their procedures that could actually be run as written. And when you launch something and it goes "BOOM!!!", it's not good to try to rely on the memory of the techs and engineers who put the toy together. But then again: "<i>We're engineers. We don't need no steenkin' procedures...</i>"Mark Matisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1592992209402300549.post-80883648192719562552018-02-01T11:10:37.827-05:002018-02-01T11:10:37.827-05:00I worked at Boeing for 27 years (Defense and Space...I worked at Boeing for 27 years (Defense and Space, and Commercial) as an R&D engineer, and I can tell you that the most important thing you need for a good, conscientious process is a culture that doesn't punish people for mistakes. <br /><br />As you say, no-one cares about the design more than the designer, but if that designer is afraid he will get demoted or fired over some aspect of his work, he may do his best to hide the problem area from other eyes. <br /><br />It's important that a team <i>work together</i>, with full expectation of criticism without reprisal.Malatropenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1592992209402300549.post-1462502112504071902018-02-01T10:27:08.611-05:002018-02-01T10:27:08.611-05:00Are you saying they don't do internal design r...Are you saying they don't do internal design reviews? That goes beyond shocking to ... whatever you call beyond shocking. Even the smallest, startup, commercial product places I worked did that. <br /><br />For readers unfamiliar, every place I know of follows some sort of design review process. They typically use terms that I believe come from the military process; terms like preliminary design review, critical design review, as well as systems, test readiness and lots of other reviews. These are set up as milestones or gates to clear during the design process. A group of engineers that haven't worked on the program get together to effectively say, "did you think of X?" or more importantly "I did that once and we had trouble with Y". Independent oversight inside the company. <br /><br />I worked in a defense and space contractor for around 15 years, so I've been through the design review series on jobs for both manned and unmanned space programs, as well as Air Force, Army and others. While it's a good idea, the dominant lesson I got out of that is that nobody cares as much that my design should work as I do. They're not the folks that are going to be working at 10 at night or Saturday morning. The most useful part of the process is that it makes you sit back and question yourself. I've had glaring mistakes on schematics that weren't found by the reviewers. <br /><br />Perhaps an inquiry board or being dragged into congress to testify gets more out of the design reviewers, but the most important thing is hiring good, conscientious engineers. A good engineer bails out a bad process <b><i>far</i></b> more often than a good process bails out a bad engineer. <br />SiGraybeardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280583031339062059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1592992209402300549.post-2500666122699316272018-02-01T09:35:13.046-05:002018-02-01T09:35:13.046-05:00"Insight" is indeed a NASA thing. But &q..."Insight" is indeed a NASA thing. But "oversight" could be properly done within the company. The idea is that this is indeed "rocket science", and as such it is easy to get tunnel vision on part of what you're doing and miss some effect you're having on other parts of the system. The "second set of eyes" is a technically knowledgeable individual looking at what you're proposing to do and seeing if it makes sense. Not "Is this the way I'd do it?", since there are generally many different ways to solve an engineering problem, but instead "Is this technically acceptable?" The technical person doing such a review is more likely to catch any real issues than the engineer who developed the plan to do the work, as long as the reviewer wasn't intimately involved in developing the plan in the first place. Of course, you still have to worry about "incest", where the reviewer says "Johnny is a good engineer and he doesn't make mistakes, so I don't need to look at this too closely. And besides, he might end up reviewing my work next week, and I don't want him to think I'm picking on him if I find a problem in his plan because then he might get back at me later."Mark Matisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1592992209402300549.post-59472496429895651482018-02-01T09:34:24.522-05:002018-02-01T09:34:24.522-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.matismhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12935009854433843094noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1592992209402300549.post-30923320872263958952018-02-01T08:52:48.356-05:002018-02-01T08:52:48.356-05:00No problem at all. It's fantastic to get this...No problem at all. It's fantastic to get this kind of information. I hadn't thought that if the leak had occurred elsewhere on the circumference of the SRB it might have been a minor inconvenience. <br /><br />I do remember the Thiokol involvement and I seem to recall there was an engineer who briefly got a lot of press for talking about trying to tell NASA not to launch that day. <br /><br />I heard yesterday SpaceX is going for Tuesday to launch the Falcon Heavy, and someone on the radio is expecting something like 8 million people to come into the area to see it. I would think they don't use insight because they're the customer as well as provider. They sell launch services - they get a payload to orbit for a price. I'm sure if they lose a payload they end up paying in some way (or else their insurance isn't working). Will they do the same policy for manned flights for NASA? I guess that's up to NASA. <br /><br /><br />SiGraybeardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280583031339062059noreply@blogger.com