tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1592992209402300549.post5523500378422159053..comments2024-03-29T09:08:47.702-04:00Comments on The Silicon Graybeard: The New 54.5 MPG Mileage StandardsSiGraybeardhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00280583031339062059noreply@blogger.comBlogger15125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1592992209402300549.post-5347395517257808972012-09-19T17:16:30.351-04:002012-09-19T17:16:30.351-04:00That would be cool to see... A little search fu le...That would be cool to see... A little search fu leads to a Jaguar C-X75 that seems to match your description. 200,000 pounds, which is north of $320,000 today. <br /><br />SiGraybeardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280583031339062059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1592992209402300549.post-54272930573966839342012-09-19T12:51:35.088-04:002012-09-19T12:51:35.088-04:00Incidentally, I believe Jag was working on a small...Incidentally, I believe Jag was working on a small turbine setup for their extended-range plug-in hybrid supercar, but decided it wouldn't be ready for prime time in time for the model's launch.<br /><br />It'll debut with a conventional small turbo four-banger while development work continues on the little jets. Tamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07285540310465422476noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1592992209402300549.post-34681496590720240712012-09-18T21:00:43.299-04:002012-09-18T21:00:43.299-04:00Glad to oblige, sir!Glad to oblige, sir!drjimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05647484115197408897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1592992209402300549.post-10162190092018691052012-09-18T20:31:53.893-04:002012-09-18T20:31:53.893-04:00I just want to say I can't add anything to thi...I just want to say I can't add anything to this, but I've enjoyed all of the conversation! <br /><br />SiGraybeardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00280583031339062059noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1592992209402300549.post-65056979345576406162012-09-18T12:06:22.333-04:002012-09-18T12:06:22.333-04:00Ahhhhh....gotcha.
I'd forgotten that most ship...Ahhhhh....gotcha.<br />I'd forgotten that most ships have a separate genset, or two.<br />That's a good example. I'm sure the engines are optimized for that use, and probably get quite good bsfc.drjimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05647484115197408897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1592992209402300549.post-58401322161631189342012-09-18T04:07:52.429-04:002012-09-18T04:07:52.429-04:00drjim - Actually, I was thinking about diesel gens...drjim - Actually, I was thinking about diesel gensets used on smaller marine craft. A number of years back I saw some small (about 1.5-2.5 liters, IIRC) German and Japanese diesels driving 15-40KW alternators on some boats in the 80-120 foot range. <br /><br />Aliennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1592992209402300549.post-86481464726859454092012-09-17T14:02:49.110-04:002012-09-17T14:02:49.110-04:00I agree about a small Diesel spinning a generator,...I agree about a small Diesel spinning a generator, and the fact that getting small turbines into production could be costlier than a small Diesel. Diesel technology has been around a LONG time, and the knowledge from stationary power plants/generators would apply directly.<br />The nice thing about using an ICE as a generator is that they can be optimized for running most efficiently at a single speed, rather than being throttled, which always cause a loss of efficiency. Most ICE's (normally aspirated, anyway) have lowest specific fuel consumption at the point where their volumetric efficiency is highest, usually very close to where the engine develops peak torque.<br />A number of the Foss tugboats being used in the L.A./Long Beach harbor are using a "hybrid" technology that involves Diesels and battery packs, but I don't know very much about them. I'll SWAG it that that's the type of marine application you're alluding to.drjimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05647484115197408897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1592992209402300549.post-47690409320891697182012-09-17T13:54:38.601-04:002012-09-17T13:54:38.601-04:00I've mentioned this here before - a small, one...I've mentioned this here before - a small, one-RPM turbo diesel driving an alternator, coupled with a small battery pack to handle short high drain demand (rapid acceleration which requires more current than the engine/alternator system can handle) and a double shaft motor driving both rear wheels is, I think, a potential solution that could yield pretty high MPG.<br /><br />Might a turbine be better? Could be, I have quite a bit of knowledge about internal combustion reciprocating engines, gas turbines not so much. But, diesel has infrastructure: fuel is sold pretty much everywhere, a lot of mechanics can fix them, and there's a wealth of engineering talent to apply on the design end. Given marine genset technology, there might be a few foundation platforms already in existence to begin with. <br /><br />Turbines might be better in the long run - I don't know - but it'll take a while to build the infrastructure to support them. <br /><br />I also think that drjim and Tam are correct: If a big leap in technology, or a completely new application of existing technology, is the answer it won't come from Detroit. And, bureaucrats in Washington will find new and innovative ways to strangle it in its crib. Aliennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1592992209402300549.post-45917306808280994122012-09-17T12:13:24.156-04:002012-09-17T12:13:24.156-04:00"Instead, to reach the new standard the cars ..."<i>Instead, to reach the new standard the cars will get lighter, with more plastics and thinner metal structures. The shorter way to say that is they'll be less safe. These new standards will cost more lives.</i>"<br /><br />What makes you think they'll relax crash standards one iota?<br /><br />These regulations are made by people who think you just snap your fingers and say "Lux fiat!" and the universe orders itself to your desires. They would vote on what pi should be and then demand it be made so.Tamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07285540310465422476noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1592992209402300549.post-18116875580592083262012-09-17T11:16:25.670-04:002012-09-17T11:16:25.670-04:00Turbines work excellently for applications that ru...Turbines work excellently for applications that run at a fixed load/fixed speed. The classic "automotive" turbine like Chrysler built was an attempt to overcome some of the problems with using a turbine in an automotive application. Namely, a load cycle that was anything but fixed, or operating over a narrow speed range.<br />A small turbine running a generator/alternator to recharge the batteries in an electric vehicle, and to supplement them, could be a game changer.<br />The problems in mass production of small turbines on the scale that the automotive industry would require some clever thinking, and materials research.<br />I'm not knocking your idea, just saying it would take a bit of effort. I think the bigger problem is the entrenched thinking in Detroit; If it doesn't have pistons and a crankshaft, it's not an engine, and isn't worth any thought.drjimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05647484115197408897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1592992209402300549.post-46046039906593997902012-09-17T10:57:09.659-04:002012-09-17T10:57:09.659-04:00I have been wrong before, but still why not try ag...I have been wrong before, but still why not try again. Turbine electric seems to work on marine applications, downscale, use ceramics, and try it. I don't have any answers just sugestions, and banging heads against wall, repeat until new answer arrives ain't getting it.HalfElfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02835121762417884144noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1592992209402300549.post-14671295980519167362012-09-17T09:29:31.163-04:002012-09-17T09:29:31.163-04:00The Chrysler Turbine Car used a standard TorqueFli...The Chrysler Turbine Car used a standard TorqueFlite transmission with a gear reduction box between the engine and the transmission.<br />The power turbine ran at about 45,000 RPM, and the gear box was about 10:1.<br />No electric motors used.<br />What killed it was the high cost of manufacturing it, and the very high NOX emissions caused by the high combustion temperature.<br />Back in the 70's when I was working at Fermilab, a buddy of mine and I had a standing joke about everybody's house would have it's own mini sewage treatment plant that would capture the methane, and use the methane to fuel a small turbine running a generator to power their house.<br />It wouldn't be much of a stretch to use a small turbine spinning a generator to power a car.drjimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05647484115197408897noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1592992209402300549.post-34749818901147442852012-09-17T06:06:06.837-04:002012-09-17T06:06:06.837-04:00The laws of thermodynamics are discriminatory, no ...The laws of thermodynamics are discriminatory, no one is allowed to tell "The ONE" no. I find that the newer cars do not have much more cargo room than my motorcycle, and aren't all that more efficient. If you have more than 2 children do you drive 2 cars, or will that be factored in, along with the lack of luggage, and overall crampedness brought on by these plastic "vondervagon"s, I do like higher MPG's, and cleaner air but at what cost?, and by who's instructions?<br />IIRC mopar had experimented with a gas turbine electric vehicle back in the late 50's and wasn't able to coordinate the DC motors, with computer assist I think it might work at this time. Constant speed turbine(little jet engine) diving a generator powering DC motors at the hub might be the ticket, who knows?HalfElfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02835121762417884144noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1592992209402300549.post-3939788771677355792012-09-17T05:11:25.746-04:002012-09-17T05:11:25.746-04:00I think it was somewhere around 1986 or so that it...I think it was somewhere around 1986 or so that it was pointed out that CARB-standard cars were performing as mobile air filtration devices in the LA basin, emitting cleaner air then they took in. The suggestion was made at that time that, instead of bludgeoning car companies for still cleaner cars, it would be more efficient for CARB to simply buy brand new models and exchange them for free with any car more than 6 years old. <br /><br />The same is true, I think, with the government's mileage wars. Trading a 14 mpg Buick for a 30+ mpg Civic or Camry would lower national consumption overnight.<br /><br />But I doubt lowering consumption, while a stated goal, is the primary reason for the effort. Aliennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1592992209402300549.post-28187177846936033302012-09-16T22:18:03.534-04:002012-09-16T22:18:03.534-04:00Getting those "last few per cent" of *an...Getting those "last few per cent" of *anything* always incurs a cost way out of line with getting the first few.<br />Maybe these morons can just repeal the laws of Thermodynamics, and we'll all benefit every where, every time, forever!drjimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05647484115197408897noreply@blogger.com