I need a Chrono. I've reloaded a few times, but never measured velocities on what I loaded. That's like missing half (or more) of what reloading is all about.
I've done some reading and with the typical chronographs, like the one shown below, a very common complaint is that they can be erratic in some situations. The white plastic pieces are to diffuse the daylight and provide even illumination. Passing clouds seem to bother them. They won't work indoors without adding LEDs to provide the backlight because indoor lights flicker with the AC power line.
Caldwell seems to have come up with a solid idea for improving their Chrono by turning it upside down. They're said to be usable indoors without extra purchases, but the tripod that's included is widely reported to not be very stable, and if there's one thing I can count on is wind. Wind and passing clouds are very common around here.
I will need to be able to set it up and have it not fall down. I'd like to be able to control it and get readings from it remotely; whether that's by wires or by wireless is a "don't care". I'd really like it to be as solid in performance with passing clouds and the bright, hostile sun, as can be. Indoor use is low priority, since my club is all outdoors, and I pay enough there that I have little incentive to go to indoor ranges.
Any Florida reloaders care to comment on what a good chronograph is? Anyone?
You can always hang a weight from the center of the tripod to give it a bit more stability. I've got a couple of really good ($300) camera tripods for photography use, but I'd never even consider using one of those at the range!
ReplyDeleteMagnetospeed... Ive used the optical ones before, but the magnetospeed is hand over fist sooooo much better!
ReplyDeleteMagnetospeed is handy, but is rifle-only, doesn't like rimfires, or slow, unjacketed projectiles.
DeleteThey have a rail adapter for anything with a picanity rail that the say works with pistols and SBRs. It does require that you use the V3 version and not the cheaper sporter.
DeleteI've got a mid-range Chrony Alpha Master, and it often throws out one strange number in the string that doesn’t seem realistic. It may be a lighting issue, or perhaps I'm shooting from too close to the sensors, but I don't really trust it. The average of a ten-shot string is probably fairly accurate, but I think I might spend a bit more and get a Magneto Speed Sporter.
ReplyDeleteThe Caldwell unit looks well constructed, however, it relies on the same old optical system, and the MagnetoSpeed _sounds_ as if it might be a more reliable system. I'm guessing here, but I imagine the technology could be similar to that in metal detectors, but sensitive enough to detect metal moving pretty darn quickly.
Besides, every electronic device I've purchased through Midway under the Caldwell label has failed in a short period of time - ear muffs, wind speed indicators, etc. Plus, I believe that adding a bunch of bells and whistles - Bluetooth/iOs/Android smartphone interface, etc. - simply provides more things to fail. And often - as just happened with a Canon Pixma printer/scanner I own - when one part of the package fails, the whole unit fails ("bad printhead", but the scanner won't work because of the printhead fail. No more Canon for me). Like a hard fault in an automotive computer system shutting the engine down because a small part of the emission system has failed.
+1 on the Magnetospeed another option to familiarize yourself with is Lab Radar
ReplyDeleteI've heard of problems with the magntospeed with attachment to some rifles and most pistols.
ReplyDeleteThe Lab radar seems to be a better option. There is nothing downrange.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/08/16/tfb-review-labradar-doppler-chronograph/
Some more reviews
Deletehttps://americanhandgunner.com/labradar-faster-than-a-speeding-bullet/
Labradar vs Magntospeed
http://www.scout.com/military/snipers-hide/story/1535699-labradar-my-personal-radar
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDeleteI find it fascinating that everyone jumps to the two most expensive options: Magnetospeed and LabRadar. LabRadar is six times the cost of a low end Chrony, Competition Electronics, etc. Magneto speed is three times the cost.
ReplyDeleteI should have said I dismissed the Magnetospeed for the reasons Tam mentioned (thanks!). I plan to work on pistol rounds, plus every one says the weight out there on the end of your barrel changes the vibration of the barrel and moves the point of impact. I suppose the exact POI isn't as important as the grouping, but it is a complication.
As far as LabRadar goes, let's just say I have spent time designing radars for a living, and the design trades have been playing in my head. There are trades in the design that make me think it's not a great tool for this application. To get the most accurate Doppler information, the radar needs to either be running parallel to the bullet's path or to have the angle of the radar beam to the path accurately compensated for. Considering the drop in speed with distance, radar processing really needs to throw out measurements beyond 3 or 4 yards, or range should be selectable. Having it measure velocities at 100 yards, as one review stated, you wouldn't want those velocities to be grouped together.
I use a cheap-ass Shooting Chrony Beta. I go to the range during the day, when I can get a pistol bay to myself, and I toddle downrange with my notebook between strings.
DeleteOnly once has the lighting outdoors been too challenging for it. I don't chrono indoors.
And for a stable mount, I drag one of the tables in the bay downrange and set it on that. :)
DeleteThanks. I've looked at that one and almost pushed the button once or twice. I've been following your tests, BTW, and appreciate the hard data as well as the effort it takes to gather it.
DeleteOur tables are concrete and are a do it yourself hernia kit. I ain't budging one of those.
Thanks! It's nice to know people nerd on the same things I do. :D
DeleteHeavy & stable mount? Give a three-legged microphone stand a thought. They come with different leg lengths and are not that expensive. There is even an attachment to use as camera stands which is very inexpensive and I think it is what the Chrono has
ReplyDeleteYou might consider the CED Chronograph.
ReplyDeleteMidway has the entire system for about $200 plus another $50 for a tripod.
The large numbers on the display are easy on my old eyes.
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/773378/ced-millennium-2-chronograph-system
For $150 you can have my system including the tripod..
sgdiaz49@gmail.com
Steve Diaz
I may not be much help....I've had an Oheler Research Model 35 for about 25 years (it replaced an earlier, older model Oehler), and according to their website the 35 is back in production. It's stunningly accurate, a PITA to set up, even when you learn the shortcuts, but.....it flat out works, and the proof channel reveals things that, from time to time, are interesting. Dr. Ken got it right. There's apparently a new "complete kit" Model 35 ($535) which looks easier to set up than my older one. I had to assemble the tripod, 4 ft rail (1/2" EMT), etc. myself.
ReplyDeleteI've been thinking about following in Tam's footsteps for a while, with an inexpensive Chrony; they're fast to set up and seem to work pretty reliably, I've never had the opportunity to directly compare my 35 against a Chrony, but with the tech available today, I'd expect them to be fairly close to a 35 in accuracy and repeatability.
When loading for accuracy and down range performance, I'm not so sure a Chrony is very useful. I've been reloading for 40+ years, and I've never seen a need for a velocity measurement. It would be interesting. I load a real hot Hornady XTP .357 mag load for deer, and I'm sure it's just as good as a 30.30 rifle round in my S&W model 66, but I have no idea what it's doing in the way of velocity.
ReplyDeleteOh, by the way, the XDs .45acp 3.3 is one sweet little shooter in my opinion. I did over 150 rounds with one the other day, and it didn't bother my hand at all. And I don't practice that often...well I didn't. That's changing.
Hoping you come back to reply - so how do your load for accuracy and down range performance? Load various amounts of powder in some test groups (3 or 5?) and then just shoot them? Lock the rifle to the bench somehow to remove that as a variable?
DeleteOn the XDs, I'm sure it's a good gun, but I went with the XDm 3.8 because of the double stack magazine. I find thinner guns bother the arthritis more than thicker ones.
To develop an accurate load
Delete1) prep the brass..if rifle, clean, trim to min OAL, if pistol , just clean
2) refer to a reloading manual as to which powder has given the most accurate load. This might not be the correct powder for your firearm but it is a place to start.
3) Set your bullet seating die to an OAL of .010 off the lands.
4) Load 10 rounds each of increasing powder charges. Vary the powder charges by 1/2 grains. 10.0, 10.5, 11.0, 11.5 etc. You will be shooting 5 shot groups , but you will need extra rounds for insurance. Most rifles are most accurate at about 90% of max load
Some people shoot 3 round groups , but I like 5 rounders.
5) shoot for group size , don't worry if you are not spot on the bull.
as you go up the line of increasing powder charges the groups will tighten up, then start to expand again..smallest group is the powder charge your gun likes with that bullet...CHANGE anything and you get to start over. Primer changes have little effect.
6) if you want to get real picky , take that best powder charge and vary around it by .2 grains, and shoot groups again...10.5 grains is best charge of powder...shoot 10.2,10.4,10.6,10.8 grains..you might see more improvement
7) lastly vary your cartridge OAL , you have already shot groups at .010 off the lands, now shoot 5 shot groups with the best powder charge at .005, .015, .020,.025,.030 off the lands...unless you are using Barnes solid copper bullets .030 off the lands is as far as you will need to go
sandbag the gun off a sturdy bench to test all loads,,,try to remove all human inputs to the shooting process. and mount a high powered scope on the rifle , the higher power the better...
Shoot at 100 yds.
Have fun...
By the way before you start down this road , decide what is accurate for you.
I have , with extensive testing , gotten every rifle to shoot less than 1 inch at 100 yards. But sometimes I want a load that has more punch than the the most accurate load so I load some rounds with a little extra ,, always staying at or under the max load info for that bullet weight.
To develop an accurate load
Delete1) prep the brass..if rifle, clean, trim to min OAL, if pistol , just clean
2) refer to a reloading manual as to which powder has given the most accurate load. This might not be the correct powder for your firearm but it is a place to start.
3) Set your bullet seating die to an OAL of .010 off the lands.
4) Load 10 rounds each of increasing powder charges. Vary the powder charges by 1/2 grains. 10.0, 10.5, 11.0, 11.5 etc. You will be shooting 5 shot groups , but you will need extra rounds for insurance. Most rifles are most accurate at about 90% of max load
Some people shoot 3 round groups , but I like 5 rounders.
5) shoot for group size , don't worry if you are not spot on the bull.
as you go up the line of increasing powder charges the groups will tighten up, then start to expand again..smallest group is the powder charge your gun likes with that bullet...CHANGE anything and you get to start over. Primer changes have little effect.
6) if you want to get real picky , take that best powder charge and vary around it by .2 grains, and shoot groups again...10.5 grains is best charge of powder...shoot 10.2,10.4,10.6,10.8 grains..you might see more improvement
7) lastly vary your cartridge OAL , you have already shot groups at .010 off the lands, now shoot 5 shot groups with the best powder charge at .005, .015, .020,.025,.030 off the lands...unless you are using Barnes solid copper bullets .030 off the lands is as far as you will need to go
sandbag the gun off a sturdy bench to test all loads,,,try to remove all human inputs to the shooting process. and mount a high powered scope on the rifle , the higher power the better...
Shoot at 100 yds.
Have fun...
By the way before you start down this road , decide what is accurate for you.
I have , with extensive testing , gotten every rifle to shoot less than 1 inch at 100 yards. But sometimes I want a load that has more punch than the the most accurate load so I load some rounds with a little extra ,, always staying at or under the max load info for that bullet weight.
I meant to thank you for this last night, but got busy. I've copied it off to my reloading files.
DeleteYou are welcome...email me if you run into difficulties...
DeleteCurrently I am shooting a lot of pistol and am enjoying using a progressive press ...
I have a Chrony Master F-1 which works pretty well. It is Canadian, so the documentation is a little, well, peculiar. I suggest springing for the printer as well, since you get a permanent record, and it will to all the math for you. By happenstance I was given a car-trunk load of used studio tripods-you might check photo stores for used ones.
ReplyDelete(central Florida here)
ReplyDeleteI have used the Shooter's Beta or Gamma chrono that a friend had, and wouldn't recommend it. It might have been his unit, but it was worthless for anything other than 22LR. Very picky and sensitive to muzzle blast for even 9mm, returned a bunch of ERROR readings and wasted shots.
I ended up buying a CED and have been pretty happy with it. The manual for the CED had some good non-intuitive tips for getting it to work when it might otherwise want to return a bunch of ERROR messages (it sees the bullet shadow on at least one of the screens but can't get an accurate reading). Things like how to arrange and how NOT to arrange the cables going to the sensors.
By the way, whatever you get, I would highly recommend that you get one that has only the sensors downrange. You'll be glad of this if you ever accidentally shoot yours, and it's easy to mess up and do this. The one time I did it (got distracted and forgot about height over bore) the positive was that it was about a $20 sensor replacement vs buying a whole new chrony.
I've seen a couple of the Shooter's Beta things in a trash can at the range, after someone shot theirs. Unfortunately the brains of it are right in the line of fire.
Thanks, Thomas. My concern is that I have to put the chrony downrange. I don't want to be more annoying to my fellow club members and take a long time putzing with it, and the most annoying thing to me would be to spend too long setting it up only to have it blow over, or not be able to get accurate measurements because of passing clouds, or other differences in brightness from one sensor to the other.
DeleteI've tentatively decided on the Magneto, although I haven't pushed the shiny button yet (the jolly, candy-like button). I was only noticing the full up set, around $350, and not the Sporter, which is a bit less than the Caldwell G2 I pictured. Even cheaper if I'd have to buy a tripod or something else to make the G2 useful.
That's why I was somewhat interested in the Magneto, SiG. The Sporter model wasn't a _lot_ more than my Chrony/the Caldwells, without running into the $400-500+ range of the LabRadar, Oehler 35P, etc. I don't jump right on newer tech when it first comes out, but I've read good reviews on the Magneto line.
Delete