In which I need to ask for help if you can.
At top of the "home page" of the blog, right above the blue box that has the blog's name in it, there's a thin gray bar. There's a little box on the left of that bar just next to an Orange block with a white B in it - the logo for Google's Blogger home page. If you enter the phrase "cardio is killing you" in the search box it will open four posts. In the default order they're Cardio May Be Killing You from September 8, 2011, Cardio May Be Killing You - Part 2 from August 1, 2016. Those are the better references, but there's also a third post about corporate wellness programs, Wait... I'm Not the Only One Questioning Wellness Programs? (The last one isn't really related and I have no idea why Blogger returned it in the search).
What I'm calling attention to here is that both of those first two focus on the idea that while the popular idea since the 1970s or earlier was that running or cycling "cardio exercise" in general was the ticket to better health and longer life. In fact, there was a hidden untruth in there based on the very common attitude that more is better. Blindly increasing your mileage running or riding or even just walking is not a ticket to long health and better life. To borrow a passage from myself, ever since Dr. Kenneth Cooper's work on aerobics in the 1960s, cardio has been the standard recommendation. In the 1970s, when I first started running, there was a highly publicized study that said no marathon runner had ever had a heart attack. They concluded that marathon running made you immune to heart attacks. This was bullcrap - it was pure selection bias. When this study was done, marathon running was an obscure sport, and only a few really dedicated people ran marathons, so they were a self-selected group of very unusual people. As the running fad spread, more and more people, with their checkered pasts, started running, and it wasn't too long before marathon runners started having heart attacks, too.
Where I'm going with this is a major portion of the second post, about atrial fibrillation or Afib. Like I said, I started running in the late '70s when the fad was soaking in quite well across the country. I'm not sure exactly when but let's say around '77-'78, so I was 23-24 and not in particularly good shape. In school I ran when they told me - aside from the sandlot football we'd play - and almost laughed at running deliberately. Someone likes running? "Pull the other one, it's got bells on it." Somewhere around 1994 I saw an orthopedic surgeon about knee pain - it wasn't the first time - that ended with a fatherly, hand on my shoulder and him saying "you know, you're not built like a runner." I had bought a nice bike but we never really rode much. Suddenly it seemed like a good idea and we started riding.
I was wholeheartedly “more is better” in cycling for years. Be able to ride a century (100 miles) any day of the year, “you can ride in one day whatever you ride in a typical week.” My wife and I used to ride together maybe 6 days/week - skipping Friday evenings. Yeah, we'd get rained out or blown out by extreme winds, but the normal thing was to ride every day after work and dinner. This started in the early 90s because I had been the same way about jogging and by the time I was getting close to 40, my knees were giving out. By about 2010 or 12, we just started riding less and eventually dropped it.
In 2013, the year I turned 59, I had a sudden bunch of awful feelings in my chest - and I was sure I must have talked about it here but it wasn't one big post I couldn't find about it. After some preliminary things, I was referred to cardiologist and wore one of those 24 hour monitors you'll hear about (a Holter monitor). Among other things I was told I had Atrial fibrillation - Afib. I've been through lots of experiences with the cardiologist, who retired a few years ago, and I was assigned to his replacement in that practice group. Last year, when I turned 70, he told me my chances of having a stroke due to the Afib double when you cross 70, (yeah, from 1% to 2% absolute risk) and started me on a blood thinner
Which leads me to this year. At my annual check in visit with the cardiologist they told me that during a couple of previous echocardiograms, the results had said my Afib was causing the valve to leak and they set me up for a TEE, - Trans Esophageal Echocardiogram - to get a closer look at my atrial valves. That was my June 2nd hospital visit. The TEE is supposed to be able to give a more precise measure of "how leaky is leaky." So how leaky was it?
The answer is that it's not a bad leak but it's time to face some harsh
realities. The whole time I was being monitored there (so every time
he's seen me since April) I was in Afib constantly. I don't really
notice it, but that doesn't mean anything.
Harsh reality #1: much
like my hernia, Afib and these valves don't get better on their own.
Harsh
reality #2: there are pretty much just two ways to fix it. The first is called
cardioversion, which uses medication and once you've got the drug in your
system, they shock your heart back into a proper rhythm. With the exception of
I think that puts me on that medication for life, I think it’s the relatively
low pain option. The other fix is more invasive, called ablation. That one
shoves an electric probe with an imager and more up your femoral artery into your heart and literally
burns away some heart tissue that is causing the Afib. As I understand it,
we’re unconscious through that. There's a cryoablation version of that
kills parts of the atrium by freezing instead of burning. I don't see
much difference.
As it turns out I have two friends that have been down this decision path: one had ablation, and the other had cardioversion. The doc asked me to do some research and let him know which one I'm more interested in getting done. The guy with ablation is off his prescriptions and completely over it. The bad part is he had to have the ablation done twice and they were six years apart. I'd really like to not have to do that. The guy who had cardioversion was "one and done" but he's still on his prescriptions, (in fact the same two drugs I'm on - blood thinner and beta blocker).
I was hoping to find people who have “Been There, Done That” with either of the Afib fixes. Lacking that, maybe a link to someplace else online where I could go. At the moment, I'm leaning toward the ablation but that's not as strong as I was leaning before I found my friend had to wait six years to finally get it fixed.
Thoughts appreciated, stories, results - that sort of thing. I don't expect doctors to answer, just folks who have BTDT.
SiG, I am not of much use in answering this particular question. I can shed some light on cardiovascular health in general. Years ago, two friends had heart attacks and underwent surgery. Both of their surgeons told them to lay off doughnuts and french fries. Another heart surgeon in the Denver area put some additional light on the subject. Men over 40 should avoid doughnuts and french fries as they have concentrated the most unhealthy oils that clog arteries and push older guys to heart attacks.
ReplyDeleteDr Cooper wanted cardio activity, but not just running. He advocated a lifestyle of sports, walking, running and other activity. Most missed the whole aspect of staying healthy and got stuck on the running part. That is especially true of the USAF generals who stopped the 5 BX fitness program and went to a 1 mile run every year.
Dave
Yeah, BTDT in perpetuity. I still weigh less than I did when I got out of high school 53 years ago, but have been WAY over that, and nowhere near as much under it over the years. That was when my parents' doctor put me on a low calorie diet which didn't really do much - as is the case for the vast majority of people who try. After the various attempts to lose weight the most successful has been on the edge between keto and carnivore, with fasting thrown in. Couldn't tell you the last time I had either fries or doughnuts. We got rid of the "not really vegetable oils" (canola, sunflower, etc.) years ago, make our own mayo and salad dressings with olive oil instead, and way too many other things to talk about.
DeleteHad afib, two TIAs (transient ischemic attack - a mini stroke), had an ablation done. The TIAs were (sort of) caused by afib. Blood pools in the upper chamber of the heart because the off rhythm means they're not pumped out completely. Clot forms, TIA or stroke ensues.
ReplyDeleteI'm now off all meds. 8 months later, took up scuba diving (burns more calories than running, no joint impact). I hang out in the lakes with fish on weekends, spend some time in the pool during the week, and in 1 year, dropped from 375 to 315.The scuba hurt my bank account but in every other aspect was the best thing I've ever done for my health. I'm 54.
Problem with the cardioversion is that it's not a long-term solution. It corrects the symptom but does absolutely nothing to fix the root of the problem - an electrical signal misfire. Ablation tries to fix the root of the problem. That's why the cardioversion leaves you on drugs - the risk is still there.
There are multiple ways to do ablations as well. Freezing (cryo), radio frequency, laser, and pulsed field. All have various advantages and disadvantages, but most docs only do one type, and most hospitals only have one set of gear for it.
Whichever way you go, get a good smart watch - Apple, Samsung, Garmin - they all have 24x7 heart rate monitor and a single lead ECG. So they can tell if your rhythm is off (and will alert on it) and then you can run the ECG to see if you're in afib. My is a Garmin that's also a backup dive computer. I'll know ASAP if the afib ever comes back so I can get it treated before something worse happens.
One of the things I've been meaning to ask the cardiologist is if any of those OTC EKG things like Kardia Mobile or a few others are particularly worth it. At a glance, in the office, they stick 12 leads all over your body, where as those things use (mostly) one or two. Consider riding a bike. You can't take both hands off the "steering wheel" to get a measurement, so all you do is something like the smart watches.
DeleteDo you have any info on whether one of the watches is particularly good. I've almost hit the button on the Apple Watch series 10 several times but it's a big chunk of change, especially since I have a "dress watch" and a casual watch, both radio sync over night.
As a side, I used to scuba dive, but years ago and usually on inshore coral reefs. Very different environment but gorgeous and fun.
Benfotiamine. Fat soluable B1. It 'reconnects' the electrical pathways that 'cause' A-Fib. I was diagnosed in 2009. I did my research after the Dr.'s were going to admit me for some tests using a drug to 'fix' it. This drug (and damned if I can remember the name) was only done as inpatient work because until they found the right dosage, you had a very high risk of flatlining that only paddles would bring back. That, and it could easily change dose requirements based on everything from diet, activity and illness. Yeah, no thanks.
ReplyDeleteMy research found a correlation between Benfotiamine and electrical activity, and anecdotal evidence of a 'fix' as several Dr's around the planet found similar. With nothing really left to lose, I started with 250mg once a day. Nearly immediately I 'fixed' my afib. I'm down to 1ea 250mg capsule once a week as my 'dose'. Based on my activity, coffee consumption and other lifestyle changes, I can up the dose at any point during my week and be good. But I'm looking at 60 in a few months and back working again full time after retiring 3yrs ago because I have the energy and really enjoy it. The little extra peace of mind lets me push a bit harder than the 30yr old guy I'm training. I've recommended it to several people with a mixed bag of results. Not saying they listened, but those that have are back doing what they wanted to do in the first place. I am NOT a Dr. I don't pretend to be one. But I do know what works for me. Pushing 60 with absolutely zero prescription medications, a single B1 cap, and the ocassional boron and probiotic is a tiny price to pay for being happy, healthy and enjoying life as I want it.
Good luck with it. We all have expiration dates, but I'm not a 'vacuum seal it, toss it in the freezer and hope it lasts' kinda guy. I'm going to live myself to death.
Thanks for the info on Benfotiamine. Never heard of it, and your success with it is very impressive. I'm sure how far along the road from normal to life-threatening Afib has some bearing on how much to take. Is there a good source to read in order to start with it?
DeleteCoincidentally, I retired at 61, like 6 weeks before turning 62. It'll be 10 years this December. I never felt like going back, since I missed the whole COVID mess and DEI went into hyper drive, but occasionally think about it now.
I can NOT sit down. Retirement lasted 3 weeks before I was unloading trucks for home depot on the night shift. From electrical work to IT cabling to maintenance in a plastics factory currently...I do not like doing nothing.
Deletehttps://www.efsa.europa.eu/sites/default/files/efsa_rep/blobserver_assets/ndatolerableuil.pdf
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3017952/
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=benfotiamine+and+atrial+fibrillation+case+study&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart and a crapton of others if you word the search criteria differently. Best of luck. I know for a fact its not fun, and life gets really complicated if the heart doesn't cooperate.
Thanks for those links! I've opened the Amazon page for the Benfotiamine and the first question of what size capsules to get was a road block. Research time.
DeleteIn my mind, there's a world of difference between not working and doing nothing. I've put together a home machine shop, turned manual tools into CNC, learning how to program G-code by hand, made stuff, including simple engines. Learned 3D printing, fixing things with that technology, too. I also spend time learning more aspects to other hobbies like my ham radio pursuits. Add in fixing everything around the house that has stopped working - that I know how to fix or learn how to.
While every body is different, I started at 250mg day and weaned myself down. It's not toxic at that dose, and is flushed out, albeit a bit slower than a water soluble version. Once you figure out what dose works for you...try boron ;-) THAT was an experience after not sleeping/dreaming for a pair of decades.
DeleteFully understand. I've got 2 home built CNC (11x22" and 32x48") and 2 lasers (10W diode and 100W CO2) It's not a matter of being bored, it's a matter of doing something different ALL the time. Stagnation of the mind scares me more than anything, and the push to be successful at anything I set my mind to. Be it build a few hundred firearms from blocks of aluminum, monitor millions of dollars of construction projects or plumb in a new DWV. I need to do something new, make things work or make them work better. My second bass guitar is in process now. Staying busy, just like you.
"Stagnation of the mind scares me more than anything, and the push to be successful at anything I set my mind to. " Excellent! Our house is full of stuff that was the "interest of the month" or of a few years.
DeleteHad a catheter ablation done 10 years ago. Was partially sedated so I was somewhat aware of what was going on. No real discomfort during (or after) the procedure. Was prescribed Metoprolol for what will likely be forever. The afib problems pretty much disappeared for a few years, then slowly started coming back and ultimately became quite bothersome. The doc says the "new" issue is related to a different part of the heart. A riskier/more complicated ablation for that could be done, but for now we're treating it with additional medications - which seems to be working pretty well. Best of luck with whatever route you take.
ReplyDeleteTo be honest, I never really thought about it coming back or if that could be a symptom of spreading around the heart, or getting worse.
DeleteSounds like Millerized's B1 is the way to go. Can try it while considering other options. If it works for you great, else, more effort required. Wishing you the best.
ReplyDeleteSix years ago for the cath style. I had severe afib issues, (er visits w/ pulse @ >180) Use Metoprolol (25mg every other day). Took about a year to get this adjusted. (prescription is for 50mg - 2x day) Last 3 visits, (yearly) everything has been perfect. The best part is no more sync episodes. Nothing gets your attention quicker than an irregular heartbeat. Whatever you decide, my prayers for a successful outcome.
ReplyDeleteThanks! One the things that surprised me is that other guys I've talked with about Afib described it like you did. The most vivid quote was "I felt like I'd just sprinted up a mountain, my pulse was 170, and I couldn't catch my breath." I thought I must have had it once or twice back in 2013 or something.
DeleteThis April when I was getting the echocardiogram, the tech said, "how's your Afib feeling?" I told her I really have no idea because I've never known when I'm having it. She said, "you're having it right now." You could have knocked me over with a feather. I told her that story and she said, "different people feel it differently." Later, the PA and I had basically the same conversation.
I've re-read this whole thing 3x now.
ReplyDeleteWhatever you decide, please do the damnest to maintain your good health; I can't begin to express how much I'd miss your daily column.
I believe we're all singular individuals: 50% hereditary material and 50% environmental: what we breathe, what we put into our stomachs, and how much and how often we employ our various and sundry muscles; please also add into the mix the various emotions and how we deal with them; the various hormonal responses to these emotions and their effect on our organs.
This is how we get our singular individual.
The top-notch physician can only see the the present day effects of a (OK: 50-year+) hx of wear and tear on the individual in front of him.
Please discuss with your physician and your cardiologist (and your wife as well) all of the possible options and their risks