Today, the US apparently shot down another ... something ... over the north Alaska/Western Canada region. What's going on? Is this something new? More to the point, in this era of spy satellites that can read the license plates on cars from orbit, or listen to small radios like your cell phones, why would anyone go to balloons and other low-tech things like that?
From my perspective, the answer is a simple truism I've quoted many times: physics is a bitch. There is nothing that a spy satellite can do that a drone or balloon or something in the atmosphere can't do better for a tiny fraction of the price. Put another way, any instrument that could be used on a satellite can be made smaller, lighter and cheaper, while returning better quality observations if it can fly at airplane altitudes.
It's difficult for me to put actual numbers here for a few reasons, but the trends that are important are easy to spot and describe. Let's start with optical resolution, the ability for that telescope looking down to resolve two objects. The distance they're apart as an angle can be calculated by the separation you want to resolve and the distance to the magnifying optic (mirror, almost without exception). The resolution angle you want is given (in radians) by the separation you want resolve divided by the distance from the optic,
Let's say you want to read letters 2" square from 400 miles - about the altitude of the Hubble Space Telescope's orbit. That's an angle of 2" divided the number of inches in 400 miles, or 2/25,344,000 (inches cancel) or 78.9 nanoradians (78.9*10-9 radians). Which works out to be 0.0163 arcseconds.
The required telescope diameter to achieve that sort of resolution is big. Probably too big for a spy satellite. You can calculate how big by using information like this:
Lambda is the wavelength of light, and a commonly used value here is 550
nanometers, the color of a nice blue green light. It turns out that
using the equation on the left, the size mirror to resolve two inches is 8.544
meters diameter. That's a big telescope; 336 inches diameter.
Until fairly recently, that would have been the largest telescope in the
world.
If we reduce the height from 400 miles to balloon height, let's say 11 miles
(close to that 60,000 foot level we read about last week). That shrinks
the telescope to a 9.2" aperture, taking it from among the largest in the world to
something like this
that hundreds or thousands of amateur astronomers own.
Another way of saying all this is that any telescope will out perform the same size in an orbiting satellite by the ratio of their heights. 400/11 miles is 36.3636. Divide that 336" scope derived for 400 miles by that 36.3636 and get 9.24".
The argument for smaller telescopes is pretty strong. Or even a fleet of smaller telescopes that can be deployed and recovered after their missions.
A similar kind of argument can be made for radio monitoring and any system that you put up being made more sensitive by being at a lower altitude. A commonly used relationship for calculating free space path loss uses the expression:
dB = 37 dB + 20log(f) + 20log(d)
Here, f is the frequency in MHz and d is the distance in miles. Since we
don't know a frequency, let's just pick the same for both, I'll use 1000 MHz,
and calculate for 400 and 11 miles.
For 400 miles, loss is 149 dB.
For 11 miles, loss is 118 dB.
Antenna gain is easy compared to optical, but that difference of about 30 dB more sensitive means about 1000 times more sensitive. Again, it seems like an obvious conclusion that the lower radio can outperform anything in orbit. The satellite might be able to compensate for that 31 dB greater losses to orbit with a bigger/better antenna, but gain like that definitely can cost.
Nice analysis, SiG. Sometimes Old Tech works just fine.
ReplyDeleteYes. Cost is an issue, satellites are expensive, balloons are not. Among the questions that should be asked is who is really behind all this. Is it really the CCP? Or is it the Fed Gov creating distractions, as in "Hey! Look over here, a UFO". What new crimes are they trying to distract us from.
ReplyDeleteThe ChiComs are bitching because we downed their stuff are threatening to shoot down our stuff in retaliation. ChiComs think they own the world so everywhere is 'their space.' They are far worse than the islamicists, who only believe the world is divided into two parts - the land of Islam and the land of War. Heck, Russia comes a distant paranoid third in 'muh borders, duhur.'
DeleteSo that right there (the bitching and potential retaliation) is an indication that it actually is the ChiComs.
Take an big old weather balloon, fill it with helium and suspend - hmmm - a small bag of Kim Jong Un's used undies or something, and send it over the US. It might cost you $200 or so. The US sends up an F22 to shoot it down, costs about $2 million. Cost effective, and further drains the US reserve of high tech weapons.
DeleteSpy planes faded in favor of satellites because of legal and treaty reasons, not because of cost and reconnaissance quality.
ReplyDeleteChina clearly doesn't care about the legal niceties.
Have you read their contract with Hunter and the "big guy?"
DeleteWe don’t care about legal niceties either. Nordstream. 2020 election. Hunter’s laptop. J6 sentences. All our revered institutions have been politically weaponized. All we can do is keep our kids out of the govt grinder, from vaccines to cannon fodder.
DeleteAnd... what you can do with a spy balloon you can do with fire bomblets, biological payloads, high explosives, loiter ammunition, precision guided bombs, dirty diapers or whatever else one wishes to drop on one's enemies.
ReplyDeleteUsing the spy balloons to track jet streams and such... followed by weaponized balloons.
After all, the Japanese weaponized balloons were very very low-tech and not of good quality, and were used during a time of very wet, extremely wet Pacific Northwest forests. Do firebomb/bomblets during times of dry conditions, and... hhhhmmmmm.... between paying the Mexican Cartels to set fires in California and lower Oregon, someone (cough cough ChiComs cough cough) could do the same to Northern Oregon and Washington (the state.)
And then one needs the will and the weapons to pop balloons, which isn't as easy as wasting party balloons.
Once again, seriously wish the 2020 elections hadn't been stolen... Sigh.
Or the last two are simply small balloons with radar reflectors being released from boats just to punk us.....
ReplyDeleteCorner reflectors, all gathered into a ball. Dirt freaking cheap. Stick out like a sore thumb
DeleteAlso consider that a balloon payload doesn't need to be particularly rad-hard, and costs and supply chain issues for the electronics are significantly reduced.
ReplyDeleteNice to see facts applied to the Balloon situation. Thanks. Like Beans posted I am suspect that our ability to detect these balloons is a real problem and the next payloads might be "interesting" as per Chinese Curse.
ReplyDeleteModern radar has a "gate" function on it so that if an object is moving slowly it does not appear on the screen. It also has the return gated for signal strength so that immovable objects are ignored as well. The radar signal can be as sensitive as you could want, but you'd be buried in "ground clutter" and would have a hard time sorting out slow-moving balloons that don't have much of a return. I won't get into the physics of it (SiG might...) but you can tune radars for specific objects by changing frequencies if you know what the reflective characteristics are of what you are scanning for. It can get complex.
DeleteDigital radars nowadays are MUCH more complex and can do lots of tricks, but you have to spend more money for them...
Good stuff, Igor. All of the radars I've worked on have been on aircraft, and all have been Doppler weather radars. Stationary objects appear to be moving toward the aircraft at (close to) its airspeed. Things moving away from the aircraft show up as moving toward it at a slower speed. The way that shows up in the return is as the frequency of the returned signal.
DeleteAll of signal processing starts with limiting the frequencies we're interested in for the return.
I should stress I had nothing to do with the processing software, just designing the receivers and transmitters - the radio part of the radar.
If you're gonna go all science-y on telescopes, take a quick look at what youtube served me the other day.
ReplyDeleteMaking a monolithic telescope from a single piece of glass (at home!)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0bysBIj0FA
And part three
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lf6uuU51Z8
He's got one on tiny space telescopes too. My old job involved a little bit of familiarity with optics, at least as far as projection lenses and lens systems went, but I never got the science or math part. This guy's style is very good.
n
I started watching the first one you linked, part 2 and probably won't go back to part one, because they optics he has talked about is pretty familiar to me. My main curiosity is why make something that small? It's interesting to see how he solves some of the problems that are common to mirror making.
DeleteI made my first telescope mirror about 1990, the almost obligatory 6" f8 beginner's Newtonian, followed by a 10" f5.6 that I finished just in time to see comet Shoemaker-Levy smash into Jupiter in '94. Both included grinding the mirror from flat glass through polishing and figuring, followed by building the telescope hardware. Since then I made a couple of intermediate-sized mirrors; a 9" f6, for a friend and another spare that's sitting around. I started a 17" mirror that is still sitting unfinished.
An overly long way of saying I'm pretty old school on wanting to make bigger telescopes, although I'd like to be able to make smaller lenses. Those are always useful.
Yeah, part one looks like it's probably all theory, and I am more interested in the physicality of his project. I'm learning things from part 3. It's filling in some blanks and foundational stuff I never got.
DeleteMy recent interest in telescopes and astronomy is driven by 1) having access to a place with a pretty dark sky, much darker than suburban Houston, and my wife asked for a big telescope for Christmas- one she could see planets and moons with. I got a good deal on a used 8" dobs for her, and she's excited with what she can see. I picked up a chinese 10" dob for less than $200 last week, and need to build or buy a mount for it.
My phone has ears, so stuff is turning up in my youtube and google related to 'scopes and stars that was never there before.
So now I'm off on a journey that I never thought I'd take, learning about both.
n
Weird, looks like google logged me out for those comments.
Deleten
Google has been doing some weird shit like that. I've had it refuse to let me comment as my logged in SiGraybeard name. Won't even offer the option. If I close the tab and open the page again, it will. I'm not sure it's Google or Firefox, though. Everyone is pushing more "security" these days and in my mind the first law of software improvement is that about 80% of the time it introduces new bugs.
DeleteRe: the Dobs, there are some new little accessories that put your smart phone holder on the scope. You align its camera view with your finder, then tell the software what you want to look at. It gives you directions how to push your scope over to what you're looking at and it gets you close enough to find it in your finder scope, if not your main scope itself.
There is nothing slicker than a GoTo mount that's motorized. You point it at an object or two to calibrate it, then it slews the scope to get you on the object by itself. Once you get the view you want in the scope, the motorized tracking keeps it there.
just saw this article:
ReplyDeletehttps://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/aug/02/pentagon-balloons-surveillance-midwest
Ha! That article spills the beans; bet we've been shooting down our own stuff.
ReplyDelete;
Don't forget that not only can a in atmosphere sensor do pictures and elint better and MUCH cheaper, it can also use atmospheric sensors, looking at air quality, chemical emissions, local radiation environments, on and on.
ReplyDeleteFor example, they can get a better idea of what certain factories are doing, how farmland is faring, how good our radiation shielding is, if we have any nukes stored in places we don't admit to, and many other instances of checking whether public data is accurate - they lie all the time, so they probably assume we do also.
And don't forget that the balloons are a cheap way for a military unit to collect it's own intelligence instead of having to beg for access to other units intel. It's a problem in the US and probably more of a problem in China...
Jonathan
Really excellent points, Jonathon. Not only can they see better and hear better down lower, they can also measure things that simply can't be observed from a satellite!
DeleteI posted a link to this on Facebook, in the AAPT-PTRA group (Physics Teachers). Maybe they can bring this up in meetings and professional development.
ReplyDelete